Q: When you believe in knowing, then nothing’s really happening. Is that right?

John: Nothing is really happening in the sense that you’re not doing something…and something is happening in a different sense because when you’re believing knowing, the deep opens.

Q: Sometimes it just seems like there’s just space.

John: From the perspective of your self it seems as just space, and that nothing is occurring and nothing is happening. It’s a level, within, that your self isn’t used to, so then you have little experience in your self as to what to notice. There’s much occurring, but what is occurring on that level isn’t something that is immediately relevant for your self. It doesn’t apply to your self. It doesn’t find immediate expression in your self. Its first expression is subtle. That expression has to do with your being, so you experience in that a restedness, an ease of being that doesn’t engage your self.

Q: I remember asking you once what Ramana Maharshi meant when he said nothing’s really happened, and you disappeared and all the background, as well, disappeared. It’s almost like just became space; almost like there’s nothing really there.

John: What is there is a level of meeting, a level of meeting that cannot be accomplished in your self. In your self you’re accustomed to meeting by doing something. You meet by engaging that which you wish to meet. When you are coming from, as awareness, what is deeper than your self, the meeting doesn’t occur by doing something. Meeting from within what’s deeper is meeting that is unadorned. It isn’t embellished with experiences that you’re used to in your self. In this sort of meeting subtlety is everything. When profound delicateness meets profound delicateness within almost nothing happening, everything that matters most is happening: the exquisiteness of meeting.

Q: I don’t understand that.

John: You don’t understand it in your self. In your self you won’t be relating to this.

Q: You mean in my mind?

John: You won’t understand this in anything that you’re used to. This doesn’t register first in your thinking, in your feeling; it doesn’t register in your emotional body. It does register in the deepest levels of your body where your first knowledge is, before you’ve come into the development of everything that you’re accustomed to and that you use in relating to your self and in relating to others.

This is devoid of all of that. What you first are within is devoid of everything that you’re used to, everything that you use to do, everything that you use to relate to something. What you first are as meaning, within, that is aware, is devoid of everything that you have developed. To reach this, within, you can’t use anything that you’ve developed. You can’t use anything that you’ve learned. You can’t use anything that relates to your past.

Q: How do I reach it? How does the veil disappear?

John: By not using any of your forms.

Q: Believing what you know in your heart is all.

John: Yes. Believing what you know in your heart without using any of your forms to define what it is that you’re knowing. As soon as you use your forms to define what you’re knowing, you come into experience of those forms.

Q: I want to label the heart as a boundless space. That’s what it seems like in some ways, so you don’t need to label it.

John: As soon as you label it you’re using something of your mind to define it. That puts you, as awareness, into your mind, putting you into something that you’re accustomed to using – the abstract. When you don’t use the abstract to define something that you’re knowing in your heart, you’ll be entering what you’re knowing in your heart. The entering comes by directly relating, not using anything other than what you’re already knowing.

Q: Not labeling that in any way.

John: As soon as you label it, you have the label.

Q: So the heart really is indescribable.

John: It’s all describable, but not from the outside in: from the inside out.

Q: I can relate to that ‘I am that I am’ because the ‘I am’ is everything. Like when you talk about the tiny little bit, it’s the only thing that can’t look at itself. The awareness that sees everything but can’t see itself? In that way it’s indescribable.

John: You’re saying something that you’re not knowing the truth of. You’re saying something that makes sense in your thinking, and in using that you’re kept separate from the very thing that you’re speaking about.

Q: What am I doing wrong? I’m just trying to describe it.

John: You can describe it, but not from being outside of it. You’re able, as awareness, to observe something. When you’re the observer you’ll be looking within, as it were, through a window. You’ll be awakening to what you’re seeing and to what you know you’re seeing. You’ll know that all of it is real. You’ll also know that you’re on the outside looking in, knowing what you’re seeing. As real as that is, that is still different from entering. You can look, within, knowing what you’re seeing.

For you to enter what you’re knowing the truth of, you cannot use the position of observation. You can’t use seeing. For you to enter that which you know you’re seeing, you need to be the same as that which you know you’re seeing. Being it is different from seeing it. When you’re being it, you don’t have the seeing it. The seeing isn’t seeing within. When you’re in it, the seeing is from within, seeing outwards. The difference of the seeing is a different reality.

As soon as you open, within, your seeing changes. Your seeing changes because what you’re coming from, within, is of a deeper level. When you come from what is of a deeper level, within, you’re seeing from that level instead of seeing from the level that you’re most accustomed to. It’s a subtle difference but the increase of meaning, within, isn’t subtle. As soon as you open, within, and you’re seeing differently, you know that there is even deeper, within.

As soon as you know, instead of looking at it, observing it, relate directly to it. That enables you, as awareness, to be completely absorbed by a deeper level within than what you’re accustomed to. When you analyze and look at what you’re knowing the truth of within, then from the subsequent level you’re doing the absorbing, taking into your self something that you’re knowing the truth of, within, that is deeper than your self. Doing so turns the deeper level within into a category in your self.

When you do, as awareness, believe what you’re knowing the truth of, you are, as awareness, absorbed into what you’re knowing the truth of, enabling you to be what you’re knowing without the use of tools, without the use of memory, without the use of anything to do with your past.

Q: Don’t try to describe what that is, in other words; not try to understand it.

John: You can disappear into it. What awareness enters, awareness comes into some kind of understanding. It won’t be a level of understanding that you’re accustomed to in your self. It is a level of understanding that’s particular to that deeper level, within. You’ll be using only the level that you’re knowing the truth of to come into an understanding, and not using any levels subsequent to that to understand that which you’ve entered.

When you become an expert on a particular culture that you’ve never actually entered, and then later you enter that culture and you take with you all of your learned and acquired expertise on that culture, you’re not really entering that culture; you’re being informed by your own expertise while you’re in that culture. You’re able to know another culture by stepping into that culture, entering the culture and being absorbed by it. The more that you use to enter something, the more that you’re being what you’re using and the less that you’re being what you’re entering.

As awareness, entering a much deeper level within is like entering a completely different culture. The ways of moving are not the same. The ways of meaning being conveyed are not the same.

In entering what is deeper, within, you don’t need any of the help from your self. You don’t need to use anything that you’re accustomed to. If you’re not using anything at all for entrance, then it is you, as awareness, without anything else, entering. What awareness on its own enters, awareness turns into.

Q: We are already awareness but that becomes what it sticks to. So just not sticking to anything. When thoughts come up of trying to understand or describe, just remain as the awareness.

John: You have a concept of what awareness is. You know how to be a self that is aware. You know how to be a person that is aware. You know how to be different forms, all of them aware. You’re able to be awareness without the use of any of those forms. Then what you are is meaning, aware.

Q: What do you mean by “meaning”?

John: What you relate to is the meaning of something. As soon as you know the meaning of something, you use the form of that meaning. You use it to relate. You use it to do something.

You’re able to be meaning without the form of meaning. There’s meaning to form because you’re in that form. Meaning comes before the form. Meaning enters a form, giving meaning form. You’re able to be meaning without the meaning of something. Without your first being meaning, you couldn’t find meaning in anything. You find meaning in everything. You relate to meaning because meaning is what you first are.

You’re able to be meaning, as awareness, without the idea of it. As soon as you have an idea of it, you’re separate from it. You’re using something of your forms, forms you’re accustomed to, to identify something you’re knowing the truth of. The idea of meaning has a density to it. It’s something that you can hold. While it has a density to it, it is actually then less of what you really are because it’s the form of it that you’re identifying with and using, understandably. It’s form, form you can hold. You’re able to be what meaning is without using anything that you’ve learned to hold that. You were that first, before you came into anything, before you were able in some way, with form, to hold something. Your return to that, as awareness, is simply without using anything that you’ve already come into.

Q: When you’re not knowing anything at all, in some ways that’s closest.

John: When you seem to be not knowing anything at all, you are knowing something that is more. It’s not something that you can identify through the use of your self, your thinking and your feeling, and yet as awareness you know it’s more. It’s a different level of more. It isn’t more form. It is more meaning – more meaning and no form.

In order for you to move, within, moving within in what doesn’t yet have any form, you cannot use any form to do so. The formless is absorbed through experience into form. Without the formless the form has no meaning. You’re able to be the formless in the form. You’re also able to be the formless without the use of the form. Being that, as awareness, comes by relating directly to knowing. It doesn’t come by using anything that you’ve experienced. You can’t use anything of your self. You can’t use anything that you’re accustomed to relating to and relating from.

Q: Then there’s just nothing.

John: From the perspective of everything that you have experience in, it is nothing. What you know the truth of is that it’s everything. It is a kind of something, an everything kind of something that all of your use of relating to something cannot find. It’s more something than all of the something that you’ve come into. It is what gives reality to all of your something.

Q: Does it have like a pulse to it, like a substance or some sort of density? You can feel it like a vibrancy, or something.

John: You can feel it because it has to do with a deeper level of your own body. There is sensation to it. Anything that you are, as awareness, while you’re in your body, has sensation to it. When you’re coming from a completely different level, within, the sensation of that in your body is completely different than what you’re accustomed to. You’re not able to reproduce that sensation through the use of a subsequent level. There are as many levels of your body as there are levels of you.

Q: In my heart there’s like a vibrancy.

John: That’s because you’re coming from what you were before trying to speak about.

Q: So I feel it rather than think about it?

John: You’ll feel it, but if you try and access it through feeling, you’ll only be accessing the feeling that you’re accustomed to. The feeling that you use is the feeling you’ll enter. When you enter what’s deeper, within, you’re not using a feeling. What you’re using is something that you know the truth of. You’re knowing something deeper, within.

Q: And that knowing something deeper has a vibrancy to it.

John: It has a vibrancy to it that at first you’re in some way separate from because of coming from what is more dense. Knowing the truth of something that doesn’t have that density creates an attraction. You’re attracted to what you know doesn’t have the density that you’re used to. You try to enter that. You try to hold it. You try to have it, and you’ll be using density to have something that doesn’t have density.

When you’re coming from what you’re knowing, that will produce sensation. It will produce an experience in your body. It will produce a different kind of feeling, a different level of feeling. You’re giving form to what it is you’re coming from. It occurs naturally. It isn’t a doing.

Q: My sense is that when this picture disappears, that that doesn’t disappear; that substance of vibrancy is the same whether this picture’s here or not.

John: Once you’ve awakened to it, the resonance of it is easy to access. The difficulty is that though you can access the resonance of it, you’ll want to have the real form of it. You want to have it in a way that’s stronger. You want to feel it much more. It can all be felt much more, but not by needing the feeling or wanting the feeling. The feeling of it is a natural occurrence when you’re coming from it. Once you’ve experienced it, you’ll have the memory of it. If you try to use the memory of it to access it, then you’ll be even more strongly the memory of it, separate from what you’re knowing the truth of. Your first time in accessing it wasn’t through memory. It wasn’t because you had a prior experience of it. It’s because you, as awareness, simply knew…and entered.

Q: That is the substance of this appearance, this picture.

John: Yes.

Q: So whether this picture is here or not makes no difference.

John: Yes.

Q: The intelligence comes from that to function in life?

John: Yes.

Q: In some ways it feels like the pulse of the heart, but it’s deeper than that, isn’t it?

John: It’s a deeper level of your heart. It’s a deeper level of your body. That’s why when you’re coming from it, your whole body seems to you, in your experience, to be different.

Q: The awareness came about through surrender. Just dropping.

John: To learn how to swim you really need to get into the water. The more that you love being in the water, the more easily you’ll move in the water. You find your way with a different way of moving than how you move outside of the water. As awareness, liking moving in this, liking being in this has you being in this and moving in this.

When you’re in this you can have as much as you like, and when you’re in this you must have as much as you like. When you’re not in this and you want to have this, you can’t have any of this. Only this can have this, and this must have this.

Q: I can see that nothing adds to it. Pleasure doesn’t add to that. It doesn’t add to anything and nothing takes away from it. It remains the same.

John: It does get thicker. As you move by this, there’s new form that comes of this. There is a density to it, but it’s not the kind of density that you’ve had experience in before. It isn’t your usual kind of density. It’s a completely different level. This does need to come into density. With that density, there is new ability, the capacity to do something, the capacity to build with this, using this in only the way that this can. Using this within another form changes that form in a way that the use of that form cannot bring about such change.

As this becomes thicker, as this becomes more, it becomes easy for you to think as this. It’s a different kind of thinking. It isn’t the same as the thinking that you’re accustomed to. It is thinking that is authentic and original. It isn’t based on a learning.

Q: Thinking from up this way, rather than down. So the heart guides the thoughts.

John: This level of the heart moves as thought from within this level of the heart.

Q: All our hearts are connected. Is that so?

John: On this level, yes. With ease you were at first talking about this.

Everything that you do, even the non-doing kind of doing, is with ease. It was with ease that you tried to have this, and it was with ease that you couldn’t have this. Then it was with ease that you began relating to this, and with ease that you began coming from this, and with ease you were able to speak from within this. With ease you knew what you were doing, even though it was a completely different kind of doing. For you to be this, as awareness, make it easy. As soon as it’s difficult, you’re not using what makes it easy.

Q: Coming from the heart makes it easy.

John: And even more particularly, this level of the heart. When you’re coming from this, everything else is different. Colour is different. The air is different. You find something of this in everything that you see. You realize that everything has this, and it really is this that enables everything that you’re accustomed to, to be what it is. Everything is dependent on this. This is first. To be aware in this requires only this.

Q: This is in everything.

John: The more that you’re in it, the more that you see it. The more deeply that you’re in it, the more that you’re able to travel as this in everything that’s around you. All of this moves. This is moving in everything that isn’t moving. Being this has access to this in everything.

Q: This is immortal. It never dies.

John: You can move as that in place of having the concept of that.

Q: Can being this heal problems in the physical body, or does it not matter anymore?

John: First, it doesn’t matter at all. You can’t bring mattering into this.

Q: This pulse is spread throughout my whole body. It’s sort of expanding.

John: That’s because your heart, on this level, has turned into your whole body. When you’re coming from this, your whole body is different. You are different and yet everything else that was, still works. You can still sit there and you can speak. You can raise the microphone when you need to speak through it. Everything is still functional and yet everything is all different.

Q: More vibrant with life. So this is what you call believing what you know in your heart.

John: This is being what you know in your heart, and you entered this simply, as awareness, believing directly what you are knowing the truth of in your heart. When you use thinking and feeling to enter this, then you’re not believing this that you’re knowing in your heart; you’re believing thinking and feeling.

Most simply put, you enter this, you enter what you’re knowing of the deepest within by, as awareness, purely liking. When you are, as awareness, liking this without the use of liking anything else, you’re in. Liking means that what you’re knowing, within, is real in all of your heart.

You enter this, as awareness, by being the same. As soon as you’re being the same, you have entrance.