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With John de Ruiter from the February 14 Interactive Live Streams on Zoom
John: You agreed to come into a body, to come into life, to be a being, in the midst of whatever genetic self you come into, in the midst of whatever circumstances you’ll come into, and in the midst of this world, without your life being about your self, circumstances or the world.
Q1: Yeah. It seemed like my perception of time changed a bit because I have these moments where I’ve seen things that seems like I’ve already lived them since I’m, like, six. So it’s like it’s been happening for a while but it’s been more common lately and I don’t know why.
John: That’s because in these times, and for you, it’s more pressing for you to be what you came here for, instead of being your self, your life, and a citizen of the world. You’re here to be in the trap but not caught in the trap.
Q1: What’s the purpose of living in the trap without being in the trap?
John: It’s important that you’re here in a genetic self, in a not real world, both being actual, just not real. The benefit of being in all of this is that there is, from within your self and from within the world, a draw and a demand on your self to feel a certain way, to have certain perspectives, to think in a certain manner – all appropriate to what is actual but not to what’s real.
With this kind of demand on your self, the demand on your mind and your nervous system, you’ll respond to that by either using the resources of your self to answer to that, which feeds a self orientation or, if you’re not oriented to your self but you’re oriented to the deep within, then when there are demands on your self from within your self and the world, you’ll be drawing from the deep. So the more intense the nervous system, the mind, the self, the world, the more deeply what is unseen in you is drawn from and brought right up into the surface, which gives form in the field of your self and in the midst of the world, form to the unseen: this unseen you, present in life, but present as a being, with all of the seeing and the perspective that comes of that.
These deja vu moments that you have, little warps in your experience of space and time, offer you a sense, within, that there’s something deeper going on than what you’d refer to as just your regular experience; that there is another unseen reality, and that’s what you belong to. It’s all within. It isn’t in your self, it isn’t in the mind, it’s not at all of the world.
Q1: Where is it from then?
John: Say again?
Q1: You said it’s not from the world, you talk about this world, are you talking about the self of this world?
John: The self of the world, all of the mental and emotional matter of the world. It’s all actual but not real. It appeals to a self-orientation and it’s dependent on self-orientation; it has no relationship to a being-orientation. It has no relationship to the kingdom within.
The self and the world – self-life and worldly-life – are what you agreed to come here and be in, without being any of that; being in the world in your self, in all such life, without that being your life.
Your life comes from within. A being life, in the world: that’s what you signed up for.
Q1: When you connect with somebody, do they have access to the kingdom within?
John: Say again, “do they…?”
Q1: When you connect with somebody do they have access to the kingdom within?
John: The self has no access to the kingdom within. Awareness oriented to the deep within has access to the kingdom within.
Bye for now.
Q1: Thank you.
Q2: Before I ask what I was going to ask you, I just want to ask you about what you said to Satyam just now. And you just said “awareness has agreed to come into this world.” The question I want to ask you is, at what level does this agreement take place and is it conscious agreement?
Q2: But the self doesn’t know about it then at all?
John: The self has nothing to do with that agreement.
Q2: So how is it possible – because it’s going to be relevant to what I want to ask you in a minute – how is it possible for the I of awareness to know it, and when does one know it? Does one know it after one’s born into this world or before?
John: Before. Before even coming.
Q2: Yeah, that’s what I was thinking. But that’s very mysterious and unknown to me. Excuse me. (Turns off his cellphone and apologizes.)
John: What were you doing, taking a second look at the agreement?
Q2: Sorry, say that again?
John: What were you doing? Taking a second read of the agreement?
Q2: (laughs) I wish! I wish I was, I’d love to. There’s a movement internally in me which is going quite, very deeper and deeper and that’s what I wanted to ask you. Did you answer that question, whether it’s possible to know, the I or awareness, to know this agreement before, in this life?
John: It’s possible. Not necessary.
Q2: Ok that’s all I need to know. So last time I spoke to you…
John: Upon coming here, you are wiped of all of the information that you’re coming from…
Q: Yeah, that’s obvious.
John: …before you’re in a body. All you have, in coming into the body, is not the agreement, no informational knowledge of what you were before – all of it is wiped from you – all that remains is you, awareness knowing. It’s a direct knowledge. That knowledge doesn’t pertain to self information or worldly information and it also doesn’t pertain to information that you were in before you were in a body. You need no information. You don’t need an understanding. Direct knowledge within is sufficient. That knowledge isn’t informational. That knowledge all has to do with beingness. You know what manner of beingness is true to you and what manner of beingness isn’t true to you. It’s all you need.
Q2: So that actually moves, I understand that, and that moves me to what I was going to talk to you about because I think, last time I spoke to you, I was describing a dream I had which was a lucid dream. I very seldom have lucid dreams, but I told you this was lucid in the sense that there was an awareness in the dream, of me having a dream. There was awareness. So in that dream where I was facing an apparition which was half bird, half human, had two parts to the dream: the part where I faced the apparition and I was in the I of the self and I was terrified, and then the second part of the dream when the I of the self was dissolving on the platform – and these were just symbols that arose in the dream – and I moved into another realm where the I of the self was no longer there. I had no recollection; I was knowing something but I wasn’t knowing it with the I of the self. That was so real to me.
And following that dream – I want to ask you how it was triggered – I had another lucid dream. I’ll tell you very quickly or I won’t go into it very deeply, but it was a room where you were talking to people in front of you and you walked through the wall and everybody followed you and I was left lying on a slab of stone which felt like the top of a coffin or something. I’m not sure, perhaps I’m just fantasizing about that, but I was lying on a stone and a person appeared in front of me and I didn’t know if it was male or female; it was androgynous. And it laid down beside me and I touched the skin of its body and there was a very, very extraordinary feeling of softness in the skin of its body.
And the other really strong symbol which happened in the dream, was I was in a room and I was playing the piano and there were people around and about, and I was playing chords which were completely alien to the harmonics of what I was used to of the western music. It was completely alien, but I knew what the chords were. So that was telling me something, whichI think the apparition was also telling me. But it was really extraordinary because the chords I was playing had nothing to do with the harmony which I’m used to. It was completely different. And then finally…
John: Knowledge that pertains to what you were before you were in a body.
Q2: That’s what we were talking about just before, yeah, this connects what you were talking to Satyam about. And then the third symbol, which was really strong, was I was sitting on a sofa and there was somebody grunting and speaking a language which was completely unknown to me and he was crawling around the sofa and talking and grunting and making noises. But I understood the language, I recognized the language but it was completely alien again. And so the question I need to ask about, there are two questions I want to ask about. These symbols that seem to be arising from the unconscious rather than the subconscious, because I think the subconscious has a different form or way of speaking, more in the terms of ordinary subliminal dreams, which I’ve been having a lot of about my childhood which is opening areas of my childhood which I needed to know about. But what I want to ask you is, it seems that these two lucid dreams have come up into me and are telling me something from the unconscious and there seems to be a relation between the dreams and the deep silence and stillness that I sometimes can move into. So is there a relationship between silence and stillness and the movement and opening of the unconscious? That’s the question I want to ask you first.
Q2: Can you make that clearer? Why is that? Where is the connection?
John: The deep inner silence, a stillness, wipes you clean of all information to do with your self, the world, and your life, which opens you to the beingness and perhaps the seeing – and maybe even informational content – of what pertained to you before you were in a body, which pertains to why you are in a body. Why you are here in this life, in a body, in a self, in the world, is all for what you were before you came here.
Q2: So what is the connection of the psychological unconscious with silence? When I’m in silence am I connecting with the unconscious side of me? Psychologically speaking, I mean.
John: When you are in deep inner silence, you are not listening to your self, you’re not listening to your life or to the world; you are listening only through a direct knowledge. In that level of listening your mind is of no use to you.
Q2: So the connection between what I’m listening to, if that happens, and the symbolic structures which arise in the dream, the unconscious, what I’m listening to, is informing the mind?
Q2: I got you.
John: If you remain in that deep inner listening without you reverting to the mind just because all of this shows up and is reflected in your mind, then your mind is free to open. When you remain in the deep listening within – which is an orientation to knowledge, to knowing instead of to thought – in the midst of thought, thought opens. It opens based on the level of your real listening within.
Q2: So are you saying that even when surface thoughts and feelings and emotions are going on one can still open to that deeper level of silence and stillness and listening? One can be there at the same time?
John: For you to be what you were before you came into a body, this is critical: that regardless of what occurs in your mind, your orientation is not to your mind, it’s to direct knowledge within. As you live that knowing within, which has to do with beingness, not information, you living this deep inner knowing in the midst of your mind, your mind will open, relax and begin to reflect this real you. What forms is a level of perspective that isn’t of your self, it isn’t of the world. It’s of what you were before you came into that body.
Q2: There are two things that arise from what you’ve said, is that first of all, in order to orientate towards a deeper engagement in that, awareness has to be open to the thinking that’s going on and it seems to me that the mind, which has this default position of just constant thoughts and feelings…
John: Not open to the thinking that’s going on, but open to what is way deeper within than your self, the world, your mind, so then you are fundamental openness, as awareness, in the midst of whatever thinking is going on. So the thinking doesn’t inform you of the truth within.
Q2: So does this occur, because most of my experience of the way thinking occurs, is that awareness or the I that I am as awareness, identifies with a thought and I become that thought?
Q2: So there has to be a kind of switching from being that thought to seeing that thought?
Q2: So then that orientation can move towards that openness which you were talking about. It’s not something which is there all the time, it’s just most of the time I’m identified with my thoughts and emotions. I identify, but at the same time, more and more as I move from stillness, that there seems to be a relaxation in that area and I’m beginning to be more aware of how my thoughts are appearing and I’m seeing them a little bit more clearly. At the same time, in relation to the dream, the symbols in the dream, I should ignore those?
John: No, don’t ignore them.
Q: What do I do with it?
John: While you see the symbol, be, come from, a deep listening within that has nothing to do with anything that you’re familiar with. That recontextualizes you, which gives, lived, it gives a different context to the symbols, to the thoughts, to the seeing, than what comes from your self.
Q2: As the unconscious opens as a result of this inner listening, it is teaching me?
John: Yes. It doesn’t first teach you informationally. What teaches you is what you’re connecting to, what you’re relating to. What informs you is knowledge that’s direct to you; it doesn’t come through your self, the world or your mind.
Q2: That makes absolute sense, because what I’ve learnt so far from the dreams is the relationship between the I of the self and the I, I call it the I of awareness, but it’s not an I. In the first dream when I was staring at this strange apparition and creature, I was immersed in the I of the self. It felt I was in my self. When I moved through the archway into the other realm, I was aware, but it was just a kind of soft, kind of knowing, there was no fear, so there was an absolute distinction between the I of the self and the I of awareness. Does that make sense?
Q2: So that’s what the dreams are telling me because in the second dream where I saw you and I was lying on the stone and I played the chords, I was coming in that dream from the I of awareness. There was no fear, it didn’t feel like the I of the self. That’s the teaching I think, the dreams have been giving me in a kind of way because you talk, in one of your talks a long time ago, you talked about the relationship between the I of the “who” and the other I, the deeper I. The “what,” that’s it.
John: Instead of the I of “who” you are, the I of the deep inner “what” you are.
Q2: For me this is a huge distinction. What you’re saying is one begins to see the movement of thoughts and feelings and emotions, and begins to see them from the level of the I of the “what” Is that correct?
John: The deep inner unseen “what.”
Q2: In the transition into death, because both these dreams were to do with a sense of dying, the first one I had a very strong sense that I was dying as my arms started to disintegrate into particles and I felt I was moving into a different frequency, a realm with a different frequency of vibration, completely. When you talk about the “other,” is that the realm one is moving into when one transits into death?
Q2: I might meet, I might be able to understand the chords I was playing when I move into death?
Q2: That’s amazing! That’s extraordinary. I’m living, in a kind of way, I’m living in these dreams much more than before I had them. In fact they are taking up alot of my inner contemplation, in a way.
John: You’re dreaming this way because you’re shifting; you’re beginning to listen within. Your dreams are changing.
Q2: Yeah. But at the same time, in my ordinary dreaming, which is more a kind of detritus or opening of those core beliefs I didn’t know about before, they’re opening to me and I’m having, in those other dreams I’m having experiences of my childhood when I was very lonely and sad and this and that, and the core beliefs that I was imbibing at that time, and that’s opening to me, is it important these things do open?
Q2: But those dreams, the subconscious dreams, I call them subconscious dreams and the more unconscious dreams, I remember those subconscious dreams, when I’m in silence, dreams that when I wake up I don’t really remember very well, when I’m in silence they come back to me. Is that a normal process?
Q2: It’s really interesting. When I was a child of about nine years old, I’d been sent to school, away from my mother, who I’ve never really forgiven, even though she’s died. Well I have forgiven her, but that’s just a thing. When I was a child of nine, I was looking out of the window and I felt this sense of presence, and the question I want to ask is: this was such a powerful experience of something holding me, but being completely indifferent to my misery. But it was so powerful, it was holding me.
John: Telling you the truth: that you are not really about your misery; it’s all artificial. The real is only what the stillness within can relate to. Deep inner stillness doesn’t relate to your self, your experience and the world.
Q2: So the actual, the key to what you’re teaching us is the ability to relax sufficiently, to enter this stillness and silence?
John: To turn into it. To be a deep inner “what” instead of a surface “who.”
Q2: I’ve used meditation for a time, transcendental meditation which contains a sound, a mantra, to move into those deeper levels, but I don’t use it anymore now. What has been very surprising in me is I can move into silence, for example I use that memory of my childhood as a kind of code to sink into silence. It’s a kind of code. Is that a useful thing to do?
John: You’re relating to a deep inner listening. It’s initiated in you, in your experience, from a memory. As soon as you face the memory you’re facing a deep inner knowledge within. The appearance of the memory fades, and the inner relating to the innermost of that memory is what you turn into so that takes you, within, what you were before you were in a body. It doesn’t offer you information; it offers you depth and quality.
Q2: So when I’m in the dying process, when I reach there, is it good to bring up that memory, as well, again, when I’m actually in the process of dying? Is that a good thing to do?
John: You could but you don’t need to. What works is a core honesty. When you are facing your childhood memory you drop into a core honesty. That’s what enables the shift of your relating, the shift away from the world and your self, and the mind, into what you really are. It’s that core honesty that works, as you face the memory, as you’re lying on your deathbed, as you are walking about in the street in the midst of whatever kind of thinking, it’s the core honesty within that connects you.
Q2: That’s what you mean when you say to be able to be in death before one dies?
Q2: That’s a big thing.
John: Let it be, instead of a big thing which is big to “who” you are, let it be warm to you. It appeals to, that warmth appeals to a much deeper level of you than “who” you are.
Q2: I have just been through the COVID experience and in that experience I was feeling that it could be that I was going to die because I was feeling so ill, and at that moment I was able to touch that stillness. It was kind of a feeling of comfort in a way, which actually brought me through the virus, through the experience of having COVID. So what you say makes absolute sense. It’s really very extraordinary. And when there is that transit into the death experience, is that just another realm of the unseen, and are there deeper and deeper realms after, when one is already in death?
John: (Nods). What death is, is a cleaning, a wiping. You’re being wiped of all relationship to the world, your mind, your self, your personality. All that remains is what you were before you came into a body. What you were before you came into a body, and the state of that because of how that evolved or didn’t evolve because of what you were being in the midst of your self and in the midst of the world.
You came through the black in coming into a body, which wiped you of all information of what you were coming from. When you die you also go through that black which wipes you again: it wipes you of your self, the world and all information, all matter, all that mattered to you in your self is gone and all that remains is the real.
Q2: So why, when you say it doesn’t really matter what your life produced but what your heart was doing, which is important in the dying process, so what my heart connected to in this life and I was open to and soft enough to be open to, that can affect…
John: That stays with you.
Q2: That stays. I think that’s what you meant by that. That’s a really beautiful thing you said. And it makes sense. My heart feels it. My life I’ve led it’s just been such, in a kind of way, chaotic – I’ve done this and that – but what has remained with me is the relationships I’ve had with my heart.
John: (Nods). What will be wiped in death is all matter, everything that mattered to you that registered through polarized thought, feeling, and emotion. Basically, all personal investment throughout your life, in death is removed from you. All of its artificiality is gone; you’re cleaned of it and you are left being what you were before you came into a body, more evolved or less. That’s all determined by what you were being in your body, in the midst of your mind, your self and the world: if that was true to knowledge within or whether that was just in alignment with your polarized thought, feeling, will, and emotion.
Q2: If my life has been polarized to my thoughts, feelings, emotions, and all those go, is there any hope for me? (laughs) That’s what I’m asking! And when I’m in death, that realm, the first realm I’m entering, is there a movement, is there a kind of journey … people talk about the journey of cells where there is an evolution of awareness in that realm?
Q2: Does awareness have an evolution and if it does, where does it go? What is the ultimate…
John: It continues on in what you were before you were in a body and in all of that environment. There’s an environment to that. You are not alone. Your coherent placement in that, after you’ve died, will be determined by what you were being in your self, in your life and in the world, whether that was developing as true to what you really are or whether that was developing as, in line with, your polarized thinking, feeling, emotions and will.
Q2: And in that case there is no hope, does one disappear into nothingness or something?
Q2: Okay! What happens then?
John: You return to the same environment, but you will not have the same placement in that environment: your placement may be higher or lower, all depending on what you were being in the midst of your self and the world. It’s all determined by what you were being in your heart. It’s all determined by not your relationship to your self or to the world, but your relationship to your heart.
Q2: That’s such wonderful knowledge. It should be taught. That is so radical to how we are brought up in this world. And in the evolution in the realm after death, where does the evolution of awareness, where does it go? What is the ultimate end of the evolution of awareness?
John: The ultimate end, the finishing of an entire cycle, is you as awareness being the same as the origin of you: you being the same as what made you.
Q2: That connects with what you said once about the ability of awareness to be absolutely still? Is that what we’re talking about?
Q2: So stillness and silence have deeper and deeper and deeper levels?
Q2: I feel those shadows, when I’m still I feel those shadows of deeper, I don’t know what they are at the moment.
John: The more still you, awareness are, the more connected you are. Experience tells you otherwise. Experience tells you the clearer your thinking and the deeper your feeling, the more connected you are. That’s not real. It’s so actual, but that orientation makes of your self the centre of everything. And the underlying belief in that is that your self is the origin of you. It’s what you listen to.
John: The more still you are – not you in your self, just you, awareness – the more still you are, the more you know. In your self, what’s offered is the more you feel and the more you think the more that you’ll know.
Q2: That’s so true. There’s such a distinction between those two things. They’re kind of opposites, in a way. When you say “the more you know,” it’s not knowing something, is it? It’s a different knowing altogether.
John: (Nods). It’s all of depth and quality; it isn’t first informational. It doesn’t appeal or relate to your self or your mind. It appeals only to you. It relates to you. It tells you the truth. It’s a different listening.
Q2: Yeah, completely. I really feel the presence when I look at you, I just feel that presence available. I want to absorb what you’ve been saying to me and I have quite a lot of other questions but I don’t want to go into an endless questionnaire, because what you’ve been presenting to me is, I want to absorb it internally. What I’m learning is the transition from the I of the “who,” to the I of awareness. It’s becoming much deeper and deeper in me. Thank you.
John: Bye for now.
Q2: Bye, John. Thank you.
Q3 (Rowan): Hi John. Thank you for being here.
Q3: Hi. John, I could really use some help around the notion of search. I feel like I’ve been in search for a long time, with intensity. A few years ago, sat with various teachers, I realized I didn’t even know what I was looking for. I had no idea. I was chasing an idea of liberation but no idea what it was. The last few years have been what seems to be an unwinding of the intensity of that and the trajectory of that into more of a rest, which has been so welcome. I find my self now in what feels like quite a deep sense of rest, but increasing sense of dissatisfaction, and I’m feeling that the dissatisfaction is re-igniting search on a deeper level, and I don’t know what I’m looking for, because what I’m looking for is me, I hear that cyclic, kind of spin …
John: The dissatisfaction is there because of “who” you are searching for. The orientation of the search is your self, but the deep inner knowing that initiates the search is original you. You search because you know there’s more but the search is erroneous because it’s for your self; it isn’t for that which knows. It’s for that which, your self, it’s for that which would like to benefit of what you know: that there is more. That all that you are in, in your self, isn’t it – there’s more. The more is within. As soon as you search you use your sense of self to uncover the deep within. It isn’t’ able to. What you know you are looking for has nothing to do with your sense of self. The search will keep pointing you in the right direction. It will always be the incorrect orientation. All you need is to be still in what you directly know.
As soon as you search for what you know, you are moving away from what you know. You are searching for your self. You are searching for a self purpose, which is fundamentally disquieting. As you become still, in what you directly know within, you are being what you know. There is no search; the search is false. It’s based on a direct knowledge but the movement within the search is self-oriented. It isn’t real. The search is you engaging your thinking, your feeling, your emotion and your will to lay hold of what you directly know within. What the search makes strong is your sense of self. You are searching for your sense of self.
If you search for what you know, the search ends because you know. As you are still in what you know you are being the same as this direct inner knowledge. You are being whole, home, real and true.
What you return to in being what you know isn’t quantitative; it’s qualitative. It doesn’t have to do with information, it doesn’t have to do with an understanding, it doesn’t have to do with anything you can hold. It’s qualitative; it has only to do with what you actually are, which is not your self, not your life, your mind. It’s a deep, inner beingness. It has to do with a flow that originates from your innermost. In you being that, it flows through all of your levels, filling your heart, your body, your self, your mind and life.
It isn’t for your self, or your body, your mind, or your life; it’s for you, this innermost level of you. And it’s only in you being that, that you, from the innermost to the outermost, flow.
Q3: Beautiful thank you. I think I’m hearing that. I think my hope has always been that it’s going to help the human, the me, find resolution, somehow. It feels like yeah, I wanted this for me. For Rowan. Rowan wants this for him. That’s what it’s felt like.
Q3: I take the dissatisfaction as being a, but I can see the maturity in what you are pointing at.
John: As the search ends, so does your sense of self end. What remains is you, what you really are, and you being what you really are. This doesn’t require a good mind or a coherent mind. All this requires is the stillness of a listening heart.
Bye for now.
Q3: Thank you, John. Thank you.