Ojas De Ronde interview with John de Ruiter in February 2000 in Amsterdam, The Netherlands. This article originally appeared on Living Satsang.
In February 2000, John de Ruiter was in the Netherlands where his parents were born. People could meet him in the Kings Room of the Artis Partycenter in Amsterdam. His invitation was: “Let the tenderness of Truth awaken the reality you have searched for, but could never seem to find.” Since I saw an interesting press release and knew a few friends who were profoundly moved by him, I went to the meeting on the 9th of February. After the meeting, I stayed with a lot of questions that I felt would be interesting for the broader public, so I asked him for an interview, and he agreed.
What surprised me was how the presence of a person and his message could have such an effect on the audience. There was a deep, intense silence in the Kings Room, and the energy was high. His words were sober, flying like birds, reaching the hearts of the people. It was as if one was listening to the song of a nightingale, singing in the darkness of a silent night. And once in a while there was the scream of a woman, who could not hold the energy anymore. I wanted to bring this back to my interview to clarify several questions. I wanted to analyse the ins and outs of his meetings with people. And I was interested in his background. Was it true that during his teenage years, he had a period of spontaneous awakening? What was the reaction of the Christians when he talked about this? Does he explore New Age concepts? Is there, at the turn of a new millennium, a new religion starting? How does he unveil reality?
I tell John how I was impressed by the awesome tenderness of this meeting in the Artis Partycenter, and touched by the explosions of energy.
John: “This afternoon was a manifestation of the Divine to people. It is manifesting reality through energy, through words; directly transmitting it to people, for them to experience it within themselves.”
Is any preparation needed?
John: “I never prepare. There is never a thought before a meeting concerning what I am going to talk about this time. There is just no thinking, no preparation, no wondering. It makes no difference to me if I sit in a chair and there is nothing. I would not speak then. There is no personal agenda such as, ‘I hope this meeting goes well’, because it makes no personal difference. There is absolutely no preparation.”
Are the words coming like in channelling?
John: “When there is a question, I am not channelling anything. I am not a medium for these words to come out. They are what I am. It is a pure and simple response that is real from within, and that extends itself outward. It is a direct transmission of what is real, toward a particular person. That person encounters what I am, and thereby realises what he or she really is.”
On what authority can somebody say this?
John: “The supreme authority is only what you as consciousness absolutely know. Anything that you honestly, absolutely do not know, you do not have authority to speak. When I am speaking of what I know, the authority and what I am are inseparable. So then the words and the energy are authority. Because I am not speaking of what I think, or what somebody told me, or what I have learned, then I am speaking of what I absolutely know, of what I am. So there is a direct transmission.”
Is this why the energy in the audience is so high, and people start screaming?
John: “The energy in the audience is so high because people are hearing from deeper and deeper and deeper within. They are hearing from the very core of their being. And the resonance of that is going right through the mind, through the feelings and through the body, and there is such an incredible tension build-up. When there is that much happening in the mind, the emotions and the body, people are not accustomed to that. So all of that energy is built up to a certain point and they scream. And the transmission just continues.
The energy in the room moves to the depth of the core of people’s being, and that energy is cracking people open as consciousness. What comes up is an irresistible pull that bypasses the mind, bypasses understanding and concepts. People find themselves called to a supreme priority within – to be close to that transmission at whatever it costs. It defies their patterned human behaviour, and they find themselves saying within: ‘I must be near this’.”
A spontanious Awakening
How did this start in the life of John? Was there any special contact with God?
John: “When I was young, the concept of God did not exist for me. During that time, when someone spoke of God as something that was real, I was hearing something that seemed unbelievable. I would be astonished, I would be amazed when somebody could believe in God, because I had no such connection. But when I was seventeen, unexpectedly, I was propelled into a deep state of true inner contentment. It was like a reunion with everything that was real. It was like a universal reality within, connecting with a universal outer reality. It was all the same. What was apparent to me was that this was union with God, with the Divine, with Truth – within, without. There was no difference. It was all pure union with what is absolutely real. There was no end within, and no end without. It was all one.”
How was this reality different from what we call real, like a real table in front of us?
John: “It was a totally different reality. It was connecting with an absolute, liquid intimacy within. It was the purest liquid gold of love, within and without. The communication with that was absolute intimacy, absolute love, absolute clarity, absolute ease, absolute healing. And every cell of my body was full of this, and it was clear that there was nothing else in the universe – this is it.”
Did it stay during eating, walking, working?
John: “There was nothing that interfered with it. That was the absolute. Anything else was subjective. What was real was the union with the Divine .”
How was the Christian church involved in this?
John: “Then I began going to the church, because this ‘incredibleness’ was happening within, and I wanted to go to find the same. I went to the church, but it was not there. In my mind I related it to God. After a year, I lost it whatever I had been experiencing, was gone. Then I became a seeker. I tried to get back what I had experienced. It took several years, agonising, searching and looking, and trying inwardly and outwardly – a kind of searching that was basically tearing me apart.”
Unveiling what is real
John: “Then I went to a complete letting go: being totally and unconditionally content to be inside of what I perceived to be darkness, and warmly and unconditionally letting go of needing to get any kind of light inside trying to change anything trying to get somewhere. That was the point at which it was like I went home – giving up everything that I had been searching for. I remained in that for a number of years, just being home in any kind of light, any kind of darkness, happiness, sorrow, pain, peace. It no longer made any difference.”
Is this now, twelve years later, still like this? What I heard is that author and historian Professor Steven Kent who specialises in world cults and new religions at the University of Alberta, Canada, recently stated in a newspaper article: “This is the beginning of a new religion. This is how they start,” and that you replied: “Reality does not ever originate from religion, rather religion can arise from reality, and on its own, falls. I am not starting a new religion, I am unveiling what is real.”Didn’t Jesus say the same? Didn’t he say that he came to ‘reveal what is secret’?
John: “What is happening in these transmissions, what is happening in being in these meetings, is being what I am. It is being a living embodiment of Truth. It is being and talking with people, that creates a corresponding pull within them to be in the same energy. It is the little bit within them, which is exactly the same as what I am, responding and loving what it is encountering. When I am being what I am in meeting people, then what people are encountering is the Divine. What they are encountering is a huge volume of everything they always knew was true within them, but could not seem to find. People are encountering what they actually know, but in a massive way. They experience such an inward response of being, because it is what they actually know is real, that is responding.”
No virtue in Morality as it is commonly defined
How does this affect the moral standards of people?
John: “There is no emphasis on morality because morality as people define it is of an old structure that is seemingly understood – contained and perceived in the mind. When we live for that kind of moral structure, we live for something that is in reality, dead.
We are relating to what arises out of our innermost; to what is ultimately new and completely clean and free of concepts, thoughts and mental teaching. A moral structure confines consciousness, and it limits it to a thought that says: ‘do this and don’t do that, and then it is good’.
There is no virtue in what people commonly call morality. There is only virtue in something that arises from our innermost – from that which comes up from within us and expresses itself outward. We cannot do that through the mind. To do that through the mind is to employ a moral vehicle, a moral structure, and that only makes us self-righteous, makes us judgmental of others. When you have a moral structure and you live by moral standards, then you are a ‘somebody’ who you perceive is more than somebody else, or less than somebody else. But then it is only a judge who is living. So everything is viewed through comparison, through the judgement of oneself and the judgement of others. Living in a moral code or moral.
At this moment of the interview, I see the bright and powerful eyes of John. Is it a projection that I hear a resonance with the original sayings of Jesus, which have recently by scientists, been rediscovered in the Lost Gospel Q?: ‘Don’t judge’, ‘Friend, who made me a judge?’, ‘Beware, you who call yourselves perfect in your obedience to the law. Wash the inside of the cup, and it will all be clean’, ‘Nothing is secret that will not be revealed’. I ask John about this resonance with Jesus’ words, and he gently nods with his head.
What then about the saying of Jesus: ‘The kingdom of God is among you’?
John: “This is what I live in. You can call it the kingdom of God, or the world of everything that God is, or reality or Truth. The universe of God-stuff is within. You cannot find it with the mind, you cannot find it through thoughts, so you cannot use your world to catch it. In that way, it is unassailable. But when the consciousness of a human is completely relaxed and lets itself be quiet and gentle, it finds itself within something that it always knew to be true. It cannot do anything to get there. And it can only be there without effort. One can only be immersed in it through simple, openness and softness of heart.”
I tell John that, in the audience this afternoon, a woman next to me suddenly whispered: ‘I see an angel’. Is that a world with which he is familiar?
John: “I communicate with other beings, beings who do not have a body. Some of them – you can call them benevolent beings – are beings who are not embodied and are completely ‘home’ – beings of truth. And there are other beings that I encounter. They are extremely powerful beings, but they are beings like people on this planet – they are not ‘home’. They are beings of untruth, beings that have a personal agenda to take and to manipulate, and to do things that are not true to do. I encounter both.”
How to discern?
John: “The discernment between the two is the same as the discernment within yourself: if a thought comes to your mind, or if somebody is teaching you something that does not move your being with the pure nectar that you know within, then do not believe it. However impressive it may be, do not believe it. But when nectar touches your heart – it does not matter how ridiculous it may seem to your mind – believe it, because this is how you know. You cannot use the mind. Use the knowing of your heart.
When you are truly in love with this nectar, and when a being of untruth comes, it can project into your mind thoughts, suggestions and powerful experiences. The nectar is there because that being cannot transmit nectar unless within itself, it is being in a true way. But for that kind of discernment, one has to be ‘home’. One has to be aligned with Truth itself, which is nectar. And that is how you know the difference.
A tiny little child in this way knows the difference. That is how a little child discerns. A little child does not discern with the mind; he or she discerns on the basis of what he or she already knows. If it doesn’t touch his or her heart, that child feels apprehensive and leaves it. If there is nectar in it; if it moves that child’s being, then he or she knows that this is real, whether there is understanding or not.”
Is this what people call intuition?
John: “This is much deeper than intuition. Intuition is the capacity to release energy so that the intuitive body works for your present way of being. If you are dishonest within, and if you have a personal agenda within, then your intuition helps to serve that personal agenda.
So, if your present way of being is not one that is real, not one that is honest, then the mind, emotions and intuition accommodate what you are presently being. People usually use the intuition for the defence of their ego.”
Is the same happening with ‘positive thinking’?
John: “Positive thinking is not an honest awareness; positive thinking is a doing. There is an agenda to achieve something, there is an agenda to control, there is an agenda to do – to be the master of one’s thoughts and feelings. There is an agenda to refine everything within so as to have everything that one wants. It is manufacturing and creating a personalised success for a personal self. Positive thinking and positive affirmations are dishonest, because these affirmations are not rooted in reality. Reality is not positive affirmations, and reality is not negative affirmations, but honest affirmations. It is allowing one’s eyes to open within, to see what one knows is real within oneself, and to allow that to express itself through words.