Ojas de Ronde interview with John de Ruiter on September 15, 2013 at the Venwoude Retreat Center, The Netherlands. 

Ojas: What do interview dialogues mean to you?

John: Through the interview, people have the opportunity to gain an understanding of what I’m like in some way outside of meetings with some different subjects opening up or different kind of profile of where I’m coming from, what I’m doing. So there’s much that is dependent on the interviewer.

Ojas: What are you doing in the dialogues with people? Are you focusing on the self or the deeper levels?

John: First, in the dialogue I’m seeing what’s there. So, in the case with you, I’m seeing you without going very deep very quickly. As soon as I see you, then a kindness rapport is established of the two of us just really being together. As that rapport deepens, it goes very quickly beyond, beyond ourselves, beyond our lives and even beyond our hearts. And then there are different levels of being that I’m coming from in seeing you and the two of us being together. The further back I come from, the more removed it is from anything practical in this life. There’s so much within to dwell together in the deeper levels within. Many of these deeper levels don’t really have a place in this life. It doesn’t have a practical application, yet it has practical implications. To be acquainted with some of these deeper levels has a profound effect on the self far before it is practical within oneself. The self has to transform before these deeper levels of the being can be made practical within the self.

Ojas: Can I ask why I feel you see me on a very deep level? I hear that from other people, too. It is just by you coming in, your walk, your steps and that I’m seen on a deeper level, or is it something in you that you do?

John: It’s not something that I’m doing. It is the result of myself being transformed to be like what my being is like, so then on the level of my self, in the form of my self, everything that I am that is deeper within than myself is being carried. There’s a continuity from the innermost right through to the surface, so then the surface is transmitting what’s deeper. If the self isn’t like the being, then the self transmits something that is of a different kind than the being. If the self is the same, the transmission follows right through from the deepest, so in that way within myself I can’t help but do what I’m doing.

Ojas: It means your body, your walking, your sitting, your body is perfect vehicle for and a window through which the being can come through?

John: Yes.

Ojas: Do you have a connection with the whole field when you talk with one person?

John: Yes.

Ojas: Can you call the contact then resonance? Because in the field, it’s resonance. In the field of waves, that’s what I feel when I sit with you in the group. There are waves happening.

John: There’s resonance. There are waves. There are streams.

Ojas: And it is harmonic resonance and people pick up your energy. Is that what happens in the group?

John: Yes.

Ojas: In the East, when you like to become a player of music, you go to a master and you live there around the master. You bring tea, coffee, music and slowly you come in tune with him and that way of teaching is what they call apprenticeship. Is that what you are doing in Edmonton?

John: Yes.

Ojas: That’s why you call it image-text?

John: Yes. We are like an accordion and at first people are clipped so the accordion doesn’t open fully. It doesn’t have the movement. When we are identified with ourselves, then we are clipped as the box, there is no opening in it. When realization and awakening take place, the accordion becomes unclipped and there is a capacity to begin to open and with that opening, there is a magical kind of realization. People realize that there’s much more within that we’re able to expand into and we’re able to move. We’re able to move in completely different ways and there are all these levels within, and as we move, these levels begin to breathe, like our body breathes.

And that’s a very different function than the function identified with in our selves. Then we’re functioning as beings that have a body and beings that have a self. The self is then being transformed by this deeper inner breathing of levels and the self reflects and becomes the same as what we’re coming from inside.

Ojas: What would I say to people to make them realize that what you are talking about is the most real thing that matters on the planet, especially when a lot of people say “be practical, stand with your feet on the ground, make money?”

John: What I’m coming from in my living and in meetings, and it’s my reason for doing meetings, is being, being what I am after I’ve died while living and appealing to the same in others. I am coming from that, coming from the deeper levels of the being. Others will easily have a resonance with that. The level that I see in you and speak to in you, I’m awakening in you. I’m creating that resonance in your experience with something that has already been in you, so then you resonate on a different level than what you’re accustomed to. Your self becomes much less. Profound levels within begin to move like air and water and you have an experience of continuity that’s uncommon for you. When you have such an experience, then you come to know, really know in your experience, that there is so much more, and the effect on yourself changes. It’s not a permanent change unless you live from that same place, but still there’s an immediate effect on your self.

Ojas: And the word continuity is fitting. It’s like you suddenly, at the same time, in the moment, because I feel home, I recognize where it comes from, a recognition of something that’s always there, in that sense, how can you forget home?

John: The deeper the level that you’re coming from within, the more inclusive that level is of everything else. The unintegrated self is not inclusive of anything deeper than the self. It’s inclusive only of what an unintegrated self relates to. The deepest level within is inclusive of absolutely everything.

Ojas: Right, because when you know yourself, you know all, even if you cannot understand. I feel what I cannot understand, but now I know it is true. I know what you are saying  is true. Is it love that is all inclusive?

John: It’s love, and more than that, it’s meaning. When meaning moves, there is love. Love is the beingness of meaning. When you’re coming from the deepest level within, you’re coming from meaning before meaning even moves.

In our selves we relate to the meaning of something. We observe something, and based on past experience, we either relate to the meaning of it being bad or the meaning of it being good, so then we stand in aversion to something that we recognize and see, or we stand in attraction to what we recognize and see. We’re relating to the meaning of something, so that kind of unintegrated self is separate from what meaning is and it’s relating to a subsidiary of meaning, the meaning of something. When you drop down as awareness into what we come from, then there’s a natural receding through the levels of the being and arriving at simply being meaning. Being meaning to the self is incomprehensible. We can only understand the meaning of something.

Ojas: But the self is looking for meaning in all kinds of things.

John: The real answer is to not find meaning but to be what meaning is. Meaning is what we first are.

Ojas: The self has to turn back to its roots and not to find meaning in money and fame, which is what it’s always doing – because the self is separate – it’s afraid that it doesn’t have enough.

John: Unintegrated, it’s separate. But integrated, it’s a form of oneness. So it’s able to communicate and transmit what we first are.

Ojas: And when that comes in tune with the heart and with the being, then it is a very strong power, and still weak in a sense. image-text in Edmonton is a kind of pool of silence, perhaps, that creates a new wave on the planet, that has different waves. Is that the way I can see it?

John: It’s silent and still from the perspective of the kind of self that we’re used to, but like an unclipped accordion that has movement, it’s not silent and still. There’s much that’s taking place. It’s the unseen that’s moving and because it’s real and good and true in how it’s moving, it’s palpable. So within awakening to the deeper levels, you can sense it, you can feel it, you recognize the effect in your body and the effect on yourself.

Ojas: I see you traveling around the world. It’s like you are dropping a little image-text everywhere you go, so that people can tune into the deeper levels and you are the frequency holder and they can come to you. Does it give joy and, I guess, responsibility too?

John: Responsibility.

Ojas: Because in a certain way those people make a commitment and come and you said it’s happening in me, so that responsibility is happening in you?

John: I’m aware of carrying what I’m coming from. I’m not carrying a purpose and a mission in myself. I’m carrying what I’m coming from, deep within, and there’s a profound responsibilty. I’m knowing a responsibilty to communicate that through all of the levels in a way that has real continuity. In some way there is an element of understanding that takes place in the hearer.

Ojas: But it feels like responsibility, in the literal meaning, responding, so you respond to what’s happening, and people respond to you. And so you create, together with us, a new field. It makes it a lot easier to go to the being.

John: The field is really the same as everyone’s deep interior and everyone’s innermost. It’s a manifestation of everything that is within, right out into the surface, into a room. It’s making seen what is unseen.

I’m manifesting the deep inward field out through the self, through the forms, through the body, to others, and in a room, so it’s actualized. What is actualized on the surface is something that always has been there deep within, but unseen.

Ojas: And that’s where greater reality falls in, as you said a few minutes ago. Here people are opening up for the immense reality.

John: Yes.

Ojas: I see you as one of the great frequency holders on the planet. I feel the accordion. It’s beautiful, soft, a harmony. This interview is an experience of that. The hidden harmony is strong. I don’t like to leave it anymore. That is my home. And whatever happens in my life, I can die tomorrow. Nothing is stronger than this, and that’s what I feel now. Beautiful that we can experience this during our lifetime.

John: It is what we’re here for.

Join the discussion 2 Comments

  • morgana says:

    thank you for this wonderful clear and lovely interview, which to me is a example of really being together . The two of you viewing in and out and weaving old skills of dialogue in
    to a newness of true meeting each other. Thank you so much John and Ojas!

  • Elaine says:

    I love this interview. John articulates so clearly and beautifully how his presence, as he relates to us, awakens us to what we are beyond the self. The metaphor of the accordion is so evocative. We unclip like an accordion and open up to deeper levels within enabling us to move and breathe as the more of what we are. What a blessing! This is what I’ve experienced with John and am so deeply grateful to him for.

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